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I think it's...Thanks for the response Paveway.<br /><br />I think it's a case of Dan making a statement he was unsure about and and is now trying to cover his tracks. What I know about chemical weapons could be written on the back of a postage stamp. But even I thought it absurd to claim that Iraq's CW program was more advanced than Syria's. I thought it that absurd that I set about trying to find out if what Dan said was correct but I cannot find a single source, anywhere that corroborates Dan's claim and he refuses to provide evidence to the various people that have asked him to prove his claim.<br /><br />He says that the reason for the low grade sarin at the crime scene in Ghouta should not be viewed as evidence that the government didn't do it but to the contrary that the low grade sarin is evidence that the government did do it. This is because, he argues, the Syrian government's CW program was inferior to even that of Iraq's so that claim forms the basis of Dan's Assad-did-it theory. But he still refuses to back that claim up with evidence citing his inability due to "NSA's". But in a recent tweet Dan said that if he was paid he could go find the evidence. So it looks like he doesn't actually have any.<br /><br />That being the case his 'testimony' would not be admissible in any investigation that relied upon verifiable evidence to support claims. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-70011091449392775342013-12-19T06:10:40.189+00:002013-12-19T06:10:40.189+00:00Dan has probably forgot more about CWs than I'...Dan has probably forgot more about CWs than I'll ever know, but I don't understand his remarks about the CW programs of both Syria and Aum Shinrikyo. He has to know better. If not, he can Google numerous credible references to the contrary. I'll gladly stand to be corrected, but he seems to stick to his odd statements about both..<br /><br />1) Syria's Sarin Program isn't as advanced as the former Iraqi program:<br /><br />Syria's program is different and far more advanced than the Iraqi program, period. Syria produced and stockpiled high-quality GB2 precursor DF as well as tonnes of some kind of Vx variant. Iraq made some impure, fairly quickly degrading *unitary* batch Sarin - GB.<br /><br />Iraq had the basic chemical formula to make Sarin, but lacked any of the sophisticated techniques or equipment to purify it throughout the steps in the production process. The relatively fresh Iraqi unitary Sarin was estimated to be somewhere around 40% purity. After a couple of years of storage, it degraded to less than 10% purity. <br /><br />Syria pursued the more technically challenging di-di process for binary Sarin - GB2. They apparently successfully produced a stable, relatively pure, long-lived DF binary agent and had a dedicated chemical corps to pre-mix and fill warheads. <br /><br />I'm not sure why anyone would consider Syrian GB2 low-quality or crude. Di-di process GB2 can't be pure because of the basic chemical nature of the binary components. If you want pure, potent, stable GB for long-term storage inside or outside a munition, then you don't make binary GB2 components - you make unitary GB and purify it. GB2 is made specifically to be deployed just-in-time at the 70% or whatever purity level that will always result from the DF+OPA reaction. I suppose it could be purified like GB, but Syria apparently never had any reason to do that. <br /><br />Aum Shinrikyo cost/quality statements misleading:<br /><br />Dan's remarks are something like "Ten million dollars - 'only' a few liters of low-quality Sarin" The Tokyo subway attack was not Aum Shinrikyo's final goal. It was almost an afterthought - their production facilities were dismantled or abandoned weeks earlier anticipating a police raid. <br /><br />The Tokyo subway Sarin was produced overnight from some DF they had stashed away. The chemist was pulled away from his Aum illegal drug-making operations the night before. Of course it was impure - it literally *was* kitchen sink GB2.<br /><br />What Dan fails to mention is that $10M went into building a lab designed to crank out something like two tonnes of Sarin a day, not the occasional few liters. They hadn't scaled up to that and were still working out the large-scale process, but there's no reason to think they wouldn't have got there in a few more months. This was an end-to-end facility - they even had automatic dispensing and plastic bagging equipment.<br /><br />The chemists had already produced bench-scale batches mustard gases, nearly all Gx nerve agents and (most worrisome) Vx nerve agents. Between Matsumoto, some small attacks and the subway attack, they had produced maybe a hundred liters of Sarin. And a lot of this was part-time on the chemists part - the drug-making (another facility) took priority. <br /><br />You can conclude that $10M *did* buy Aum Shinrikyo a well-equipped, well-stocked fairly large-scale clandestine nerve gas production facility - not a one-off kitchen-sink operation. The chemists don't sound too confused about the synthesys - they did make di-di process Sarin, but more importantly were successful in making Vx. <br />PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-60617350609825013662013-12-18T07:20:58.925+00:002013-12-18T07:20:58.925+00:00"...IF rockets were used for Sarin, which you..."...IF rockets were used for Sarin, which you seem to doubt..."<br /><br />Sasa has laid out evidence and logic in this blog that supports a conclusion involving rockets. I'm just a drive-by dissenter, too lazy to start my own blog and do all the intellectual legwork Sasa has done to support my own low-conviction hunch. I'll be the first to insist there is far more solid evidence for the canister rockets than my Elvis-in-a-pickup speculation. PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-45287854354403500682013-12-18T06:25:40.222+00:002013-12-18T06:25:40.222+00:00The cans wouldn't be loaded in the production ...The cans wouldn't be loaded in the production plant. The one exception would be if the opposition all ready had a bulk production facility up and running. I don't think anyone has suggested that they have that capability yet. If they do and they're using the di-di process for binary Sarin, then the DF precursor may be very low purity and have a lot of HF they can't remove. They would have a hard time storing the DF and end up with even more corrosive Sarin after mixing. In that case, I suppose filling a warhead right at the production facility might make sense, but it would be pretty impractical. I just don't think they have that capability at all yet.<br /><br />If the opposition used Sarin in East Ghouta, then they most likely brought in the somewhat purified DF precursor for GB2 that was produced somewhere else. Their Sarin would have looked relatively clean because they couldn't have transported in corrosive, unprocessed DF. If it was from Libyan stockpiles, then it was fairly pure DF. If it was Saudi, Israeli or American, then it was surely high-purity DF. Nothing Iraq may have hid in Syria would be usable today. <br /><br />Fluoridating DC to produce DF (the so-called di-di process) does not produce a clean DF. It contains a lot of HF and several other process chemicals when first made. It needs to be cleaned, distilled and stabilized. The cleaner and purer the DF, the longer you can store it and the better quality Sarin eventually produced. Relatively pure DF can be stored in drums and transported to wherever it will be mixed and used. Unprocessed, raw DF, on the other hand, probably would need some kind of elaborate teflon-lined pressure vessel if you even wanted to ship it somewhere else.<br /><br />Syria's military Sarin program produced purified DF which was shipped in bulk to the various Chemical Corps storage bunkers. Mixing/filling equipment is on-site next to the bunkers, as well as the unfilled munitions. The bunkers themselves would be close to the consuming units: right at the airport for aerial bomb filling; near missile launch sites for missile warheads or near artillery units for shells. The whole mixing/filling operation is just-in-time for a specific type and number of munitions. If Assad wants one Scud launched with Sarin, then the Chemical Corps is going to mix and fill one warhead and drive it over to the missile guys.PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-7802290976596901332013-12-17T20:51:32.986+00:002013-12-17T20:51:32.986+00:00It would have been handy if there were clear corro...It would have been handy if there were clear corrosion signs on the canisters. I don´t see any, but the absence of visual corrosion traces doesn´t prove anything I guess.<br />But I would think loading the cans a few days earlier in the ´sarin production plant´ wherever that is, would cause corrosion risks? And leakage risks... So the lead time must have been kept short (IF rockets were used for Sarin, which you seem to doubt)veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-22290210762728161242013-12-17T19:14:15.836+00:002013-12-17T19:14:15.836+00:00My uneducated guess: you would see a coating of co...My uneducated guess: you would see a coating of corrosion after minutes on an unlined steel canister - that's using some scavengers and inhibitors. You would still use them to maintain some stability of the Sarin, not to protect the can. <br /><br />Since it's fill and fire, the armorer would be indifferent to the rapid corrosion. If the can lasts five minutes, then it's not even worth attempting to coat it. Most paint would react with HF anyways.<br /><br />The visible nature of the corrosion one would expect is interesting. I would think rust-like on an uncoated can, but quantities of hexamine or other components in the brew might show as the white, irregular coating more frequently seen in the vids.<br /><br />There's just too little information to go on. That's why I'm sticking with the Occam's razor theory: incendiaries or explosives in the rockets unrelated to the chemical attack - don't care who fired them when.<br /><br />Easier/quicker delivery method: pickup truck, 55 gallon drum and a pressure washer driven slowly from the North-East corner of Zamalka in no-man's land several blocks to the South. No electricity, so no lights and no witnesses. After that, it's just a matter of finding impact points in the plume area and blaming whatever munition landed there as part of an attack. <br /><br />Look at the HRW impact points and imagine how a plume would travel in a light, WSW breeze. It looks like Aum Shinrikyo's Matusumoto attack without the boiler:<br /><br />http://www.cnas.org/files/documents/publications/CNAS_AumShinrikyo_Danzig_1.pdfPavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-260241969825725442013-12-17T10:05:37.137+00:002013-12-17T10:05:37.137+00:00Thanks for explanation Paveway.
One more question....Thanks for explanation Paveway.<br />One more question. Would you expect to see corrosion due to Sarin-HF- plus all the rest mixture? Or is contact time too short.veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-87567868481863034472013-12-16T23:14:17.735+00:002013-12-16T23:14:17.735+00:00I'm confused by your first question, Veritas. ...I'm confused by your first question, Veritas. The square-headed plug would be the main filling port (hole, whatever...). Bulk semi-liquid payloads like incendiary mixtures would be added through that hole. <br /><br />If this was used for Sarin, then you would have to think about 1) containing any fumes coming out of the canister (displaced as you added liquid) so it wouldn't kill you first, and 2) HF and other nasty fumes subsequently outgassing from the DF + IPA mixture whether you mixed them inside or outside the can.<br /><br />One way to handle that (very old-school, Iraqi and such) is to have a filling device that uses a flexible, accordion-like sleeve over a much smaller metal tube, sometimes called a filling wand. The metal tube can be inserted some distance into the canister. The sleeve is a larger diameter that the filling port and would press against the outside perimeter and maintain a slight suction to contain any gasses. Liquid is dispensed through the metal tube with some kind of hand-operated trigger once the sleeve is in place. Once filling is completed, the wand is withdrawn back into the sleeve and detached from the can. The sleeve suction will hopefully contain evaporates from the wand. I imaging the operator would be eager to have the fill plug back in the fill hole as soon as possible. That's how a single-hole filling machine would work in theory.<br /><br />The two-hole method is to attach suction to a separate second hole on the canister (venting port) and add the liquid to the first filling port. <br /><br />Re: HE filling<br /><br />The unexploded HE payloads we see in videos seems paste-like or fairly dry. There really isn't a practical way to get that through the small fill hole in the tail plate without screwing around with slurries and vacuum drying. I would think the HE mixture goes in the top somehow and then the noseplate and fuze/booster cup are attached after filling. There wouldn't be any need to weld the top (or nose plate) for cake HE.<br /><br />Tail fuzing (rear of canister, not rear of rocket):<br /><br />The tail fuze and 'bicycle pump' charge (my opinion) mostly applies to a liquid payload. It would be fuzed for an inertial or percussion trigger and set off an ignition/detonation charge. That would be for what I guess would be a thermobaric EBX or FAE payload. I'm basing that on deformities seen on all (except the 'dry' unexploded HE version) of these rockets: a longitudinal dent a half-meter or so long on the side of the central tube closest to the second, smaller tail-plate ceramic-plug hole. That's a particularly difficult deformity to make without a liquid payload and a linear charge paralell to the central (rocket motor) tube inside the can. Spent rockets slamming into the ground tend to fold the leading edge of the central tube over the dented part, suggesting the dent occurred first. That presumes everything else blew like it should have before striking the ground.<br /><br />Sasa has suggested that the device bicycle-pump thing associated with that port may be part of a proximity-fuze, functioning in some way with the nose charge. Having a dispersion charge inside the can *in addition to* the nose 'peeling' charge would be a good way to aerosolize a liquid payload.<br /><br />In any case, the armorers for the larger UMLACAs can clearly be seen manipulating some kind of longish-devices into both the nose and tail of the canister before launch. The tail device seems to have wires/cables attached prior to launch. It could be some kind of control mechanism. Nobody really knows - the few pictures of the scorched tire-pump remains found near spent rockets don't give many clues to its purpose.PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-16551443615932041482013-12-16T00:41:26.847+00:002013-12-16T00:41:26.847+00:00Rather than go over all these points I will just r...Rather than go over all these points I will just reproduce my response to him which covers my feelings well:<br /><br />"Thanks for all your time on this Eliot.<br /><br />Right now you are going to think that I am deliberately being awkward but please note that is not my intentions. But take an objective look at that statement for a minute.<br /><br />"A media activist" who "thought [it] was a surface-to-surface missile...[that released] a chemical substance"<br /><br />So HRW's source of this information is a rebel but not even a rebel fighter (who may have known it could have been a surface-to-surface rocket) but a rebel media activist. A media activist who knew what was and wasn't a "chemical substance". I just have a difficulty with accepting that single source as proof Eliot. Let alone HRW which has already been found to be misrepresenting facts in relation to the 21/8 attacks. Let me put it this way; say the shoe was on the other foot and this was a government "activist" trying to implicate the rebels, would you lend his/her statement much validity under the circumstances?<br /><br />On the doctor's report. Again afford the story some objectivity. Why would rebels tell a doctor specifics such as the time of the attacks, that "18 missiles" were fire, that they were "carrying...chemical agents" and that they were fired from a particular area to particular areas? Does a doctor need to know all that? Again the source is HRW.<br /><br />Now that isn't to rubbish these stories entirely. This guy/girl could quite easily be telling the truth as could the doctor and if so this deserves a second look. Have you uncovered any additional witness testimony or reports to support what they say?<br /><br />You also suggest that whilst the "October War Panorama" is 1km away from the suggested launch area that the "witness (a rebel) was slightly out with the point of origin"? 1km is a big distance to mistake when trying to locate were up to 18 rockets were fired from. Especially when one is being very specific about all the details.<br /><br />But let me look into this some more before ruling it out and if you come across any other information I'd really appreciate it if you could post it in reply to this thread?"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-69997151127793462092013-12-16T00:39:58.352+00:002013-12-16T00:39:58.352+00:00"When he mentioned his eyewitnesses did he in..."When he mentioned his eyewitnesses did he include his friends the Syrian Support Group who said they were launched from Baghdad Bridge and the Syronics factory?"<br /><br />This is what Higgins says and it requires a lot of mental gymnastics to fathom:<br /><br />"Well, one thing that was interesting is in the HRW report on the attack they had this statement<br />"A doctor working in the medical center in Erbeen, a town in Eastern Ghouta, told Human Rights Watch that the attack there began at 3 a.m. on August 21. He said that at the time there was no fighting taking place between government forces and opposition fighters. Activists in the area told him that 18 missiles, carrying what they said was a chemical agent, fired from the direction of the October War Panorama, a military museum in Damascus city, and of Mezzeh military airport, hit Zamalka, Ayn Tarma, Douma, and Moadamiya."<br /><br />The October War Panorama is about 1km west of that area, so could it be possible the witness was slightly out with the point of origin?"<br /><br />He then says:<br /><br />"Other witness also point to the direction of the October War Panorama<br />"A media activist in the town of Ayn Tarma told Human Rights Watch that the attack there began between 2:30 and 3 a.m. He said that around 2:30 a.m., he and others saw a missile launched from the direction of the October War Panorama in Damascus city. At the time, he said, he was at home with friends. He described what he thought was a surface-to-surface missile striking nearby and releasing a chemical substance:"<br /><br />If you check the map, the area just in front of the October War Panorama, between it and Ayn Tarma, is the area controlled by the government."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-10268416900059800382013-12-15T02:43:30.974+00:002013-12-15T02:43:30.974+00:00You've got his point of view correct. The trou...You've got his point of view correct. The trouble is it's a very ill thought-out one.<br /><br />I think he's realised that but is not prepared to abandon it because it suits his agenda.<br /><br />When he mentioned his eyewitnesses did he include his friends the Syrian Support Group who said they were launched from Baghdad Bridge and the Syronics factory?<br /><br />His latest ploy is to ask why no-one in the Government saw or reported 'rebel' launches - ignoring his own lack of eyewitnesses.<br /><br />Separately I've put up new comments on the two Liwa al-Islam posts here. The "Amer Mosa" August 21 'chemical weapon' launch video has a burn time of 2.3 seconds compared to the HE burn time of 3.0 seconds so it's not the same type of missile. The Liwa al-Islam missiles have a burn time of 1.6-1.8 seconds which is radically different to the HE variety.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-71759137636711700002013-12-14T23:36:23.288+00:002013-12-14T23:36:23.288+00:00I have been studying these maps and been trying to...I have been studying these maps and been trying to keep an open mind but I am at a lose as to how Higgins believes this is the launch site? I must be missing something crucial as it simply doesn't appear possible that the army could launch such an attack from here, from the front line and without anyone seeing it. Is Higgins still using the line 'the rebels could have been sleeping' to answer that question? The reason I ask is that last week when I debated with him on his blog he asked that we accept that rebel "eye witnesses'" who apparently seen the launches and claimed they came from a government position actually got the launch location wrong. But only wrong in terms of launch location and not that they weren't launched from government positions. Higgins asked that we accept that the launch position was actually 1km way and to the west. I find myself having to accept a lot of improbabilities mixed with some mental gymnastics in order for Higgins' narrative to make sense.<br /><br />In his favour Charles am I misrepresenting his claims any way or am I missing something from his analysis?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-52490472459561882982013-12-12T22:58:03.112+00:002013-12-12T22:58:03.112+00:00UN report out: https://unoda-web.s3.amazonaws.com/...UN report out: https://unoda-web.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/report.pdf<br />At first sight, no improvement compared to the previous one concerning Ghouta!veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-36694222292080893132013-12-12T20:54:16.417+00:002013-12-12T20:54:16.417+00:00The sector image on
http://whoghouta.blogspot.com...The sector image on<br /><br />http://whoghouta.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/response-to-new-brown-moses-theory.html<br /><br />shows two red markers BM1 and BM2. BM2 is the North West corner of the Army base. Directly South of that and still next-door to the Army base is the technical college which was an occupied insurgent stronghold.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-71717617634461721532013-12-12T19:28:18.818+00:002013-12-12T19:28:18.818+00:00Paveway,
Concerning your remark nr 2 cfr the seco...Paveway,<br /><br />Concerning your remark nr 2 cfr the second port on the rocket.Wouldn't you need a 'filling vent', independent of regular army/rebels filling such a device? Otherwise there is no way of getting liquid in? I don't understand the rest of your comment, why do you think it holds a tail fuse?<br />How are these things filled when it is HE?. Is it filled and welded when full? Wouldn't that risk igniting the payload?<br />Veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-29860296349868412622013-12-12T18:03:03.866+00:002013-12-12T18:03:03.866+00:00Not to mention Hollande/Fabius. Not to mention Hollande/Fabius. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-5266313750062985232013-12-12T17:44:00.183+00:002013-12-12T17:44:00.183+00:00Makes sense Sasa, but what do you think of the lac...Makes sense Sasa, but what do you think of the lack of corrosion on the rockets. Paveway says that having a minimum of 13% of HF is inevitable and that the isopropylamine doesn't solve everything. That means that inside the rocket, there is a high concentration of HF. If there was a puddle of Sarin after impact, highly concentrated fumes of HF would have corroded the steel.<br />There remains my other question, why are the inhabitants not more afraid of touching the rocket remnants? As the bloating of the dog proves the time frame, only a few days after so much death was caused by it, there is no fear anymore.veritasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-15406275289500812892013-12-12T16:12:17.356+00:002013-12-12T16:12:17.356+00:00Charles where exactly is Higgins saying the govern...Charles where exactly is Higgins saying the government launched from? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-41688041422027752052013-12-12T15:35:43.999+00:002013-12-12T15:35:43.999+00:00I think the more territory around Ghouta and Alepp...I think the more territory around Ghouta and Aleppo that is retaken by the SAA we will eventually uncover more about the sarin debate. <br /><br />More and more people are starting to accept that part of the Syrian opposition has access to chemical weapons. There is a mountain of evidence that points to this now but all that is missing is that conclusive piece of evidence or proof. The same as is missing from the "Assad did it" conspiracy circle.<br /><br />But what the difference is now is that initially that circle lambasted all and any for even suggesting that Syrian rebels had access to chemical weapons whereas now their tone has started soften. To think that I was once also of that same mindset is frightening for me as once you allow yourself to think for yourself and look at the evidence objectively a whole new picture emerges.<br /><br />To be honest Eliot Higgins has done more to persuade me it was the rebels that carried out this attack than anyone else. He has convinced me that the only thing missing from the evidence of rebel culpability is them being seen with a launcher. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09489652909761357041noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-78123651765465026392013-12-12T14:44:40.555+00:002013-12-12T14:44:40.555+00:00Unfortunately, you can't let the genie half-wa...Unfortunately, you can't let the genie half-way out of the bottle. They have both set in motion a series of all-too-predictable tragedies that guarantees tens-of-thousands of additional dead Syrians and a good million or two more refugees in the coming months. <br /><br />If the US and UK would simply admit to their crimes against humanity, they would start down that long road to recovery and redemption. That's hardly likely with the psychopaths in charge. I would expect Assad to magically reform before they do.PavewayIVhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17329924099308073556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-37783829308130818442013-12-12T01:21:25.311+00:002013-12-12T01:21:25.311+00:00Charles, That's not a problem to explain. Sari...Charles, That's not a problem to explain. Sarin is about 1000 times more lethal than HF, so anyone who was exposed to any significant amount of HF was dead...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16560859391032391947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-16631601853948467612013-12-12T00:21:13.573+00:002013-12-12T00:21:13.573+00:00"medicine, vehicles and communications equipm..."medicine, vehicles and communications equipment" and the under-mentioned Atropine, Gas Masks, and Decontamination Equipment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4304138063571120909.post-42155183953157023432013-12-11T21:26:35.780+00:002013-12-11T21:26:35.780+00:00Veritas,
This post although of unknown authentici...Veritas,<br /><br />This post although of unknown authenticity sounds plausible and describes the production of HF in the hydrolysis process.<br /><br />http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20121004132634AAdfUJk<br /><br />My puzzlement then is why the symptoms of Sarin poisoning don't include HF poisoning as well - presumably strong irritation?<br /><br />Dead animals? It was in the high 30Cs each day and never got below 20C at night. Expect any degree of bloating in those conditions. e.g. August 20/21<br /><br />http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/File:OSDI-tmp-hum.pngAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com